FromMichiel van der Vlist2:280/5555.0Date Write2018-06-21 14:15:17
ToBill McGarrity0:0/0.0Date Arrived2018-06-21 21:10:26
SubjKeeping it private.
Hello Bill,

On Sunday June 17 2018 20:33, you wrote to me:

BM>> Yet there were members of Z2 who did vote

MvV>> So you say. But where is the list of voters to confirm it?

BM> Again, you use cliched symantics to justify your cause. Show me where
BM> they didn't vote?

That fact that you label it as a clichee does not invalidate it. You know very
well that in general proving a negative is impossible. It is you that claimed
there were votes from Z2. The onus of proof is on you.

MvV>>> So why did Z2 have to abide by the results if they never agreed
MvV>>> to hold an election in the first place?

MvV>> And your answer to that is?

BM> Well, Lee has been preaching for who knows how long that the overall
BM> good for 'Fidonet' is how the game should be played. Are you not a
BM> part of Fidonet?

I am. But Lee is not. he is a user. His opinions are just that: the opinions of
a user. I am not bound by Lee's "rules".

BM> You see, none of the other three zones who accept P4
BM> can assume responsibility for a lack of interest, desire or concerns
BM> when it can to the vote. If Z2 was that strongly against it,

Z2 was strongly against because P4 was incompatible with how things were done
in Z2.

BM> why did you just come out and vote it down?

We did not have the numbers to do that. Besides, why should we be forced to
participate in an election when we never agreed to decide the matter by a
fidonet wide vote anyway?

BM> Maybe Z2 is to blame for having the current document because of Z2's
BM> lack of initiative or concern.

There certainly was no lack of concern!.

BM> As an old tv character once said, ôLogic clearly dictates that the
BM> needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.

That amounts to dictatorship of the majority. Ram it down the throat of the
majority even if it severely hurts them...

BM> ö Back then you may not have had the #'s but today you do in a general
BM> election IF you can get it by the remaining ZCs. Your choice...

It is too late and it does not matter any more. the damage is done. :-(

BM>>> being Fidonet is a "family" under democratic rule, z2 would have
BM>>> to abide by the resulting vote whether it be yay or nay.

Fidonet is not and never was a democracy.

MvV>>> Duh.... Z2 doesnt do it that way.

That was a response to XXCarol writing the same with Z1 and Z2 reversed.

BM> You fail to understand the point. Z1 as a individaul entity of Fidonet
BM> can control it's business as it sees fit. Just as Z2 can and has.
BM> When dealing with a system wide decision, then ALL zones share the
BM> outcome.

There is and never was an agreement to make a system wide decision the way it
was done.

BM> Now, as I said, none of the other ZCs can take responsibility for Z2's
BM> lack of effort. Who knows, if you got the #'s you could ahve upset the
BM> apple cart but you didn't. Live with it.

"Live with it"....

That is exactly the attitude that evokes feelings like "it was rammed down our
throat". Z2 was vehemently against it. The then ZC2 Henk Wevers made it cristal
clear. And he also explained why it was damaging for Z2. It was ignored and Z1
pushed it through by choosing "democracy" as a decision method so that needs of
the minority could be overruled.

"Live with it"....

Eventually we did. But at great cost and damage to the zone and fidonet in
general. The rigid geographical structure imposed by P4 was incompatible with
the cost structure of the telephone network in many countries. We had no free
local calls and the cost of national and internationlal calls was sky high and
eh.. chaotic. P4 ruthlessly demolished the cost sharing and sponsoring that we

In Germany it led to a schism. There was "Fido classic" and "Fido new style"
each with their own nodelist. In The Netherlands it lead to a seven year CSO
war. The CSO war ended with Fido over IP when the cost of distribution dropped
from sky high to almost zero.

Yes, we eventually adapted and learned to live with P4. But the pain it took is
not forgotten. The throat still feels soar when someone opens up the old
wounds... :(

Cheers, Michiel

--- Fmail, Binkd, Golded
* Origin: (2:280/5555)