FromLee Lofaso2:203/2.0Date Write2018-05-16 04:02:19
ToMichiel van der Vlist0:0/0.0Date Arrived2018-05-16 05:10:07
SubjWhat if USA had stayed home after WWII?
Hello Michiel,

MV>>>> Had the US simply left after WWII, there would have been no such
MV>>>> rivalry.

BM>> There may have been other factors that contridict your assemsment.

BM>> In 1948, the Treaty of Brussels was signed by Belguim, The
BM>> Netherlands, Luxembourg, France and the UK.

MvdV> 1948... That was three years after the US had NOT left after WWII.
MvdV> things had developed in another directionby by then. You can not
MvdV> my assesment by events that happened when the conditition "if they had
MvdV> simply left after WWII" was not fulfilled.

US policy had changed after WWII. Not just because the war had come
to an end, but for another, more important reason. FDR had died. The
new president, Harry S Truman, wanted to go in a different direction.
Remember, WWII had come to an end in 1945, within a few months of FDR's
death. The Cold War did not begin until 1947, two years later.

BM>> Neither the US or the USSR have clean hands in this as the old saying
BM>> "to the victors go the spoils", each side wanting to protect the
BM>> section of Germany it had 'defeated'.

MvdV> That would not have happened if the US had simply left after WWII. I say
MvdV> again: the idea that the Sovjet Union had plans to invade and conquer
MvdV> Western Europe was based on a giant misunderstanding.

It was not so much a "giant misunderstanding" as it was a deliberate
change in policy - set in place by US President Harry S Truman.

Had FDR not died (everybody in the US was shocked, as they thought
he was in the best of health at the time of his death), there likely
would never have been a Cold War. Europe would have been rebuilt,
and never divided between east and west. Churchill would have
thrown a fit, and Brexit may have come decades earlier, but that
would have been a small price to pay given the alternative.

BM>> The Soviets threat was immediate with the Berlin Blockade
BM>> as well as the Czechoslovak coup d'etat.

MvdV> That was way AFTER the US had not left after WWI. Instead the US had
MvdV> installed an occupation force with impressive military presence all over
MvdV> Europe. Naturally that was perceived as a threat by the USSR and the had
MvdV> respond.

The US occupied Japan for five years after the end of WWII.
The US occupied the western part of Germany for ten years after
the end of WWII. Why didn't the US leave the western part of
Germany after five years rather than ten? Because the Soviets
refused to leave Austria.

Why did the Soviets choose to remain in Austria for so long
after the end of WWII? Because of the changes made by US President
Harry S Truman. Not because of anything done or agreed upon by FDR
and Stalin.

There was no "giant misunderstanding". Stalin knew full well what
Truman was doing, or attempting, to do. The one thing no Soviet
leader wanted was US troops on its border. Which is exactly what
would have happened had Stalin removed all Soviet troops from
Austria and the eastern part of Europe.

BM>> Next came formation of NATO with ALL parties involved in the original
BM>> treaty becoming members. Question, would NATO have existed without the
BM>> two events listed above?

MvdV> The events listed above would probably not have happened if the US had
MvdV> simply left after WWII and there may have been no NATO end certainly no
MvdV> agressive expansion of NATO after the collapse of the Sovjet Union.

FDR could not help dying. So please. Do not blame him. It was
Truman who changed policy. Had FDR lived, he and Stalin would have
made a deal to help rebuild Europe, and make the world a safer place
for us all.

NATO was designed as an organization meant to contain Germany.
The Soviets came up with The Warsaw Pact, which was designed to
do the very same thing. Germany had caused two giant wars in
Europe, with Russia being a prime target. France also did the
trick, when Napoleon was at the helm. So who can blame Russia
for being skittish?

MvdV> And without that aggressive expansion of NATO, there would have been no
MvdV> for Russia to respond.

Aha! Michiel's solution for World Peace! Invite Russia to become
a full-fledged member of NATO! No need for resurrecting The Warsaw
Pact, or rebuilding the Red Army! Russia should be PARTNERS!

MvdV> There would have been no war in eastern Ukraine and MH17 would not have
MvdV> shot down.

The idea of Russia being invaded by passenger airplanes is ludicrous.
But there clearly is a problem in eastern Ukraine. A problem that
demands a *political* solution. Not a military campaign.

BM>> Would Poland, Hungary, Romainia, Bulgaria join East Germany as a
BM>> satellite?

MvdV> There would have been no "East Germany" had the US simply left after
MvdV> There would haven been just "Germany".

Had FDR not died in office, Germany would have remained one Germany.
And Berlin would not have been quartered. But none of us can change
the past. We all must live in the present, and seek to build a better
future for us all.

BM>> original treaty was signed. The writing was on the wall (pardon the
BM>> pun) with regard to Europe seeing the Soviet threat.

MvdV> The threat was based on a giant misunderstanding.

Not a "giant misunderstanding" but a change in US policy due to
the death of a president.

MvV>>> I am noty joking, I am dead serious. And what history? Your
MvV>>> convincion that Russia woukld have invaded Western Europe is
MvV>>> solely based on the conviction that they are the bad guys.

BM>> As stated above, they did have an agressive streak.

MvdV> A response to the aggression that arose by the US not simply leaving

There were some US military who wanted to continue the war by invading
Russia. But US troops were tired of war, and wanted to return home.
While it would have been better for Truman to have returned all US
troops from Europe, he at least saw the light and chose not to invade

MvdV> I say it again: had the US simply left after WWII, the Sovjets would
MvdV> left too. All they wanted was to go home and lick their wounds. The
MvdV> prolongd US presence forced them to respond and stay as well.

That is basically FDR's and Stalin's position. Truman had a different
view, and Stalin could do nothing to change his mind. As could nobody

MvV>>> That does not make sense, If those regugees thought Stalin was a
MvV>>> threat to Western Europem fleeing TO western Europe is a bit
MvV>>> illogical don't you think?

BM>> Not if you were in Czechoslovakia, Poland, Hungary, Romainia, Bulgaria
BM>> or East Berlin.

MvdV> Living there was not as bad as you seem to think.

How do you know? Visiting for just a few days on holiday
does not make you, or anybody else, an expert. Perhaps you
should join in the fun this summer by visiting Russia for
the World Cup. Unfortunately, like the USA, the Nederlands
did not make the cut.


Laying Pipe Since '88

--- MesNews/
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